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cjpl203 5:56 Mon May 18
Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Thread here:
http://www.the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25890
Asked by a jounalist to give comment about Sam's tenure at Bolton, some interesting replies, including some who blame West Ham for giving there team the long ball tag in 2003 or thereabouts.

cjpl203 6:01 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

"I got bored of Big Sam's football during his last season here (06/07). It was the last time I had a season ticket and despite finishing 7th that year, some of the games were just utterly dire. We were chasing a Champs League spot with Everton around early April, and they came here and drew 1-1 and it was an absolutely awful game, nothing like you'd expect from two teams going for a top four finish. The excitement had gone. Nothing can top the home game v Blackburn the year before though. It was a local derby that ended 0-0 and it was horrendous and stultifying to watch. Awful.

With that said, there were definitely some great times, no doubt about it. Players like Okocha, Djorkaeff and Campo were magnificent and I doubt we'll see another era like it here for a long, long time. Fond memories include the climax to the 01/02 season, Okocha's goal v West Ham, the relegation of Leeds, qualifying for Europe, playing Marseille, embarrassing Arsenal.

Like all things, though, it eventually lost its magic and the act of trying to put one over the big teams eventually led to us playing like that in every game until we got sussed out and got battered a number of times towards the end of Allardyce's tenure"

Hermit Road 7:13 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

They don't seem too bothered about the shit he served up. Having said that, asking a Bolton fan to distinguish between good and bad football is like asking my 7 yr old whether she prefers Mcdonalds or a Michelin-starred restaurant.

WHUDeano 7:57 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Probably the best reply:

Allardyce was a managerial genius - not just a manager / coach.

My first match was in 1962 - we were relegated from First Division 2 years later, and whilst we occasionally got back from the depths, we were never better than a yo-yo team.

Then we had a period under Allardyce unlike any in my lifetime. We were respected by all and feared by most. (Hence the Wenger, Souness type comments).

As others have said - Allardyce changed the business model for promoted teams. No more mediocre players on huge transfer fees and generous contracts who then bankrupted you when you went down. save the money on transfer fee, put it in the salary and buy the best players you can find.
Usually those players were flawed or out of favour at Top Clubs (Real Madrid, Inter Milan and AC, PSG, Liverpool, ManUre, Galatasaray) not from the teams who had just got relegated.

It is a testament to his recruitment abilities that we have to debate on here who was his best signing - from a list that includes Okocha (free) Djorkaeff (free) Campo (free) Hierro (free) Anelka (£8m) Diouf (£4m) Speed (free?) SKD (free). That collection of players had cost their previous clubs over £100m - and we paid less than £15m for them - which we got back when Anelka was sold.

For me, what I really remember most was our long passing game. Not the lump it up to SKD version but the spells when Djorkaeff and Okocha would put together 3 or 4 60 yard crossfield passes that were a sight to behold. And even they would have to bow down to Hierro, who could land a 70 yard pass on a sixpence and take half the opposition out of the game with one touch.
In the end though - Youri Djorkaeff is simply the best player I have ever seen, or am ever likely to see in a Wanderers shirt.
(And Youri said in one interview that Sam was the manager that he most enjoyed playing for - some compliment)

He led the way in Sports Science in this country.
Which also changed the business model, because he could operate with a smaller squad. Spend £1m on an army of sports scientist to get the top players on the pitch rather than spend it on another overpaid mediocre squad player.
And the sports scientists included top notch sports psychologists, so that our team went out KNOWING they could beat anybody.

The MD of ProZone told me that his firm owed its present success to the breakthrough given to them by two Premier League managers of the time - Sam Allardyce and one other (even more surprising). Sam was doing Moneyball years before the film.

He introduced 4-5-1 to this country as the formation that allowed a team to beat more talented opposition - followed not long after by Mourinho, and then copied by all and sundry - that formation allowed us to win more than our share of away games and get up and stay up with a squad that was barely championship standard at first.

He was smart enough to modify the tactics for Arsenal - who had their own way of playing out of defence then through the midfield- his backroom squad analysed Arsenal's patterns and blocked their supply at source. Whinger hated it. Others copied Sam and Arsenal have won nothing much since.

His reputation for pragmatism really comes from two things. Firstly - he was told by Sir Alex rednose at the start of his career that if you don't get results, you will not get a chance to put your philosophy into effect - so get the results first. Secondly, even allowing for the talent he recruited, he has spent almost all of his career running clubs with limited budgets who had to outsmart wealthier opposition with better players.

I think he has been a manager for about 20 years, and has taken his team to higher position than the year before on all except 2 occasions - one of those was when we slipped from 6th to 8th (shame).


And yet.....
It did go backwards in the last couple of years - as others used Prozone to out-Sam him.
We became a caricature of ourselves at times, playing for position, not possession
The Panorama allegations never totally went away.

We bottled out of strengthening the squad when we had a chance of the CL and he lost interest.

The world has moved on and caught up with him, maybe overtaken him.

The football world has changed - these days the stars he brought to us would most likely head off to China or North America or the Middle east (Drogba Lampard etc etc).

He was leading edge at the time.

In similar circumstances he seems to have got a very ordinary and low budget West Ham team punching above their weight amongst the moneybags teams.

He has been overtaken by fashion and economics, but not by results.

crapnotshit 3:19 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Sports Scientists my fucking arse

Eggbert Nobacon 3:26 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

is that a request?

Tony_Gale 3:27 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

"In similar circumstances he seems to have got a very ordinary and low budget West Ham team punching above their weight amongst the moneybags teams."

Low budget? Didn't realise Crystal Palace, Swansea and Stoke were the moneybag teams

Eerie Descent 3:41 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Tony_Gale 3:27 Mon May 18

This is the thing that gets completely overlooked by media and fans of other teams. It's like we've spent the last 2 years battling against the odds on a paupers budget. The man has spent £30mil on two players since we've been back up, that's forgetting the rest of the dough we've spent.

The fact of his time here, is you'd rather leave him in charge of free transfers, and let others decide how the money should be spent.

Anyway, let's hope that's no longer our problem!

ludo21 3:49 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

I will eat my (marzipane) hat if West Ham don't finish above whatever shower of shit BFFS is managing next season.

Alex V 3:50 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

The thread was a good read. Of course Bolton fans will idolise him and that period - look at them since. Funny that none of them make the connection between Allardyce's poor youth development, and reliance on highly paid veterans, and what has happened to them after he left.

If you build nothing, you end up with nothing.

As I suspect we will find out.

ludo21 3:51 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Although (more by luck than judgement) we do seem to have some good youngsters coming through.

ornchurch ammer 4:31 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

If you build nothing, you end up with nothing.

BFS's view is probably why worry about youth development as that is what the youth development team is there for.
Let's be honest, no manager has ever been sacked on the performance of their youth development squad have they?

13 Brentford Rd 4:32 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

Funny how most of the replies on there disagree with all the media/know nothing comments about shit football he allegedly serves up as a default, just as I said repeatedly on here for years. it's a myth perpretated by the media and football managers looking for excuses.

As one reply said how could they possibly pla such bad football with the players they had.

Trevor B 4:33 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

oa

to be honest mate that's probably most manager's view. there was a good article a few months back from Rio, talking about youth development and suggesting that it's down to the owners and those that run football to change the short termism that seems to have taken hold. if managers are given short term contracts and short term targets then you cannot really blame them for short termism.

Darby_ 4:54 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

We had some of the best kids in the country 15 years ago. Despite that we were almost relegated under Redknapp then really were under Roeder. Again under Zola and Grant we played a bunch of kids and the same thing happened.

It's all well and good talking about 'long-term goals,' but with a trapdoor waiting below Premier League teams, if you don't pay attention to the short term then there will be no long term.

chim chim cha boo 5:20 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

I actually appreciate what Allardyce did for us for maybe the first two seasons (or a bit less). The season we got relegated we had a team that used to come out all guns blazing and score one or two goals then get bossed around like a bunch of cowards and almost always ended up losing. We had no backbone. I used to liken us under Grant to a group of pretty good footballers who had only just met in the car park before the game.

Allardyce quickly established a good fighting spirit and in the Championship we looked fitter, physically bigger and much more organised. In Nolan we had a good leader and for the first time in my lifetime I saw a West Ham that bullied other teams. We scored from loads of corners and indirect free-kicks and although we crept back up through the playoffs we did at least get back up and clung on for that first season back up. Despite our finishing spot I was always worried we'd get relegated throughout that first season back.

The second season back in the Premiership we seemed to go backwards. He may have been a cutting edge manager at Bolton but the problem is that almost every Premiership team has mixed and matched his methods for at least the last twelve years. Football doesn't stand still for long and EVERY team is bigger, fitter and use Prozone and sports scientists. He's been sussed out by most managers now.

He's a massive egotist and self-promoter who can't leave a winning team alone- he has to constantly tinker. His training methods seem to have stopped working and we suffer the same amount of injuries as we have done under almost every other manager. Other teams look much sharper and fitter than us and certainly press the ball a lot better than we do. We're far more cautious when we set up and almost never attack in numbers. We're set up to not lose rather than to win and we lose anyway.

He's all about 'managing expectations' and has conditioned me to expect shit football. If we score an early goal I don't celebrate wildly because I know at that point the game's finished as a spectacle. The only way it gets exciting is when the opposition equalise. Then low and behold we might actually start playing football again.

There's loads more I have trouble with him about like his statistics that he seems to make up on the spot, barely veiled insults to the fans and owners, nothing is ever his fault, his pet players being shoehorned back in and unbalancing the squad, his waste of money signings, not giving the youth a go unless it's all of them to make a stupid, needless point about them being shit. I could go on of course.

Bottom line is that the day he arrived he said 'what is the West Ham way? Pretty football and always losing'.

Now he's got us playing terrible football and we're still always losing'. We need a fresh, modern approach from a manager with new ideas and not 20 year old ideas that everyone (except BBC pundits) have sussed.

Thanks for righting us and pointing us back in the right direction Sam but like a bad house guest you've outstayed your welcome and have nothing more to offer here.

, 5:30 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

cccb, I pretty much agree with all of that. tune out his blather and the anti BFS venom and just look at what has happened. He was innovative in his day but now his style is that of yesterdays man and he is not competing with the more recent managers. Forget the back and forth of stats arguments too and simply consider the table and current form.

He has completed his brief and now it is time for improvement.

Full Claret Jacket 5:34 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

I agree good appointment early on. We needed a strong manager in and we got the players like Nolan who ensured good team spirit and a return to the PL. Thing is we haven't moved on and there is no mystery in how we will play and how to stop up playing.

It seems Sam is doing as much as he can to wind up and rile the fans and owners now.
This article today just sums it up. His ego has no bounds.

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/2483/9855029/Sam-Allardyce-hoping-to-remain-West-Ham-manager-after-outstanding-spell-in-charge

It's obviously not his fault that we've been on a horrendous run of form and abject performances in his opinion. Frankly he should be embarrassed given where we were at Xmas. Can't understand why the media hasn't made more of the poor performances and keep saying he is doing a good job.

Alex V 5:38 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

>>> if managers are given short term contracts and short term targets then you cannot really blame them for short termism.

Of course some managers would assume a responsibility to promote the long-term health of the club whatever the length of their contract. Rather depends on whether the manager manages for the good of the club or for their sole benefit.

, 5:41 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

We don't know precisely what the original BFS brief was but youth development would have been a small part of it at best. Fact is the owners bear all the responsibility for youth recruitment and development.

Trevor B 5:42 Mon May 18
Re: Interesting thread about Big Sam's time at Bolton

V

perhaps you missed the bit about short term targets? if all the owners are interested in is short term results then its down to them.

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